Мои претензии к фонду Pocarr

Leo_Manowar @ 24.09.22 

LeshiyAS, нет.

Я не ставлю Арбитраж юридическим лицам.

А ты накосячил достаточно, чтобы пользователи имели ссылку, по которой можно кликнуть и почитать.

Лео писал бы уже честно "я не ставлю арбитражи фондам" .(причины каждый додумает сам)

 Какие проблемы с выставлением арбитража Юр лицу? Юр лицо имеет конечных бенефециаров, но не в этом суть. Допустим завтра какойто фонд не заплатит игроку его долю в 20к. В договоре у фонда будет указано название фонда и указан НИК официально представляющий фонд на этом форуме.

 ТІ не поставишь ему арбитраж? Почему? какая в єтом будет логика если задача арбитражей Информировать о добропорядочности конкретных ников. даже если за этим ником будет скрываться организация - так это же еще лучше. Сразу дает понять что вся организация гнилая. ДА и кто дожлен тоже понятно- никакой принципиальной зарницы от должника в виде физ лица тут нет. 

ЗЫ НЕ считаю что поккар тут накосячил как то для арбитража, но с расчетами мейка конечно разораться нужно.

tipitip, так сложилось, что я ставлю Арбитраж накосячившим игрокам, а фонды-школы-команды разрушают свою репутацию сами :)

Leo_Manowar @ 24.09.22 

tipitip, так сложилось, что я ставлю Арбитраж накосячившим игрокам, а фонды-школы-команды разрушают свою репутацию сами :)

так себе объяснение. точнее это просто его отсутствие. звучит как "я так хочу". ну че- тоже вариант.

tipitip, нет. Не "я так хочу". Я включаю мозги и решаю. Не всегда бываю прав - как и все остальные.

Обнаружив минус к своему предыдущему посту, я с одного раза угадал, кто его поставил.

Leo_Manowar @ 24.09.22 

Обнаружив минус к своему предыдущему посту, я с одного раза угадал, кто его поставил.

после этого сообщения я тоже попробовал, тоже угадал. как это работает?!)

psdimas @ 24.09.22 

после этого сообщения я тоже попробовал, тоже угадал. как это работает?!)

Аналогично  

JekAAAAAAA @ 23.09.22 

Случаи бывают разные, вот мой личный график за последние пару лет. Спасибо Покарру!

накрутили лайки опять, ну что такое)

Leo_Manowar @ 24.09.22 

Обнаружив минус к своему предыдущему посту, я с одного раза угадал, кто его поставил.

У меня уже больше месяца такая фигня и ты об этом прекрасно знаешь, и тоже любой может сказать, кто.

P.S. Только у тебя он, как всегда, не один.

Hi,

My name is Alex, and I am the founder of Pocarr. I have asked our lead Russian manager to post this for me, because the creating of new accounts is frozen on Gipsy.

I have always had great respect for Aleksei because he works hard. I value this over most things in life and choose to give my time and attention to those who truly work hard. I respect this a lot in Aleksei. With this, it was often with my advice that we as a collective unit at Pocarr, chose to improve conditions for Aleksei.

In February 2020, we paid $3,799.79 to sponsor Aleksei’s football team. In return he extended his playing agreement with us, so this was not done as charity, but we viewed this as a low ROI, or roughly neutral EV investment to have him be happy.

Link: https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/tallinna-fc-pocarr/350818

Image: 

url: https://gyazo.com/c02f19acea1df9eb6c3c8cd278819c92

Aleksei wanted a $1k/month guaranteed loan. As is standard in the staking industry, our only option we make available is for this to be a pre-chop. We will provide your share of a future chop immediately, and we receive our share in the future. In a staking relationship, you provide money and typically divide profit 50/50. If you make $1,000 at the tables, the player receives $500, and the backer receives $500. We are giving the opportunity for Aleksei in this instance, to receive his share of $2,000 profit at the tables immediately, and we will wait for our share until the winning happens.  When Aleksei wins $2,000, we will receive the full amount, and Aleksei will be +$1,000, Pocarr will be +$1,000 ($2,000 minus the loan given), and with that $2,000 profit at the tables it was divided as a poker arrangement typically goes. The only difference is that we allowed Aleksei to receive his share in advance, sometimes months or years before actually winning at the tables.

If Aleksei were to ask to receive a $1,000 loan and repay us $1,000 in the future, we would decline. We are not a bank and do not have enough money to do such a thing. We are not a charity. If Aleksei were to offer to return $1,000 with 10% interest, we would decline the original loan. We are offering to provide his share of future winnings, and this is the structure we can make it work. Aleksei is welcome to decline, seek staking elsewhere, get a loan elsewhere, sell an asset. We have never forced a player to receive a pre-chop. Our contracts are in the Player’s native language, and English; we make two different versions. This avoids any issues with language and the terms are clear before we begin any staking arrangement.

Later, Aleksei asked for this to be increased to $2,000 per month. We agreed. He later asked to revise this to be $0 per month, and instead 50% of his monthly profit would go toward clearing makeup, and 50% would be chopped. We agreed to this. This is an important point. If you cannot feed your family, you cannot take on the risk of not winning at the poker tables and have this model. The reason Aleksei could propose this, is because he was receiving money from us to coach. He was keeping all rakeback, which he was not authorized to do. He has enough in savings, investments, cryptocurrency, real estate, etc. that he knew if he had a losing month, he would be fine. He did not want to touch those things, and again, as always, the terms were very clear.

It may seem that a pre-chop of $2k going 2x to makeup (on a 50/50 deal) is not the same as 50% going toward clearing makeup and 50% being chopped, but I assure you they are the same thing. I will walk through the math:

If you profit $8,000 in a month and have $100k makeup, you send $8k to your backer and have $92k makeup. You receive a $2k loan at the end of the month, $4k is added to makeup, and makeup is now $96k.  The backer has received $6k and knocked $4k off makeup. The player has received $2k.

If instead you send 50% to clear makeup and chop the other 50%, you send $4k to your backer to reduce makeup (down to $96k), you keep $2k as the player, and you send $2k further to your backer. In this instance, the player received $2k, sent $6k, and makeup remained $96k.

So, both models are pre-chops. If Aleksei can risk receiving $0 in a losing month, he has enough money to survive and eat. He has plenty of assets, he just does not want to touch those. Fine. We made an offer to him that we would provide these pre-chops and he would not have to touch his assets. He accepted. We expect those terms to be followed.

To the various claims made:

“those my six months of nonsense, where I did not receive any moral and technical support.”

url: https://gyazo.com/edabf4225de06e94d937f38470e2b18d

Above is an image where I have found the exact timeframe. July 31st 2020 – February 8th 2021, roughly. In this time, I personally had 28.1 hours of group coaching calls with Aleksei. Aleksei had requested that I be the main person he does coaching with, after 116.43 prior group coaching hours which proved to be helpful, beginning in June 2018. During this timeframe of “not [receiving] any moral and technical support”, I also gave 7.7 hours of 1-1 calls. These are things I personally provided, at Aleksei’s request, after years of great success working together. It is an outright lie, and I have proof of this, that we provided zero moral or technical support.

In total, I have provided 210.53 hours of support to Aleksei via phone calls on Skype. This does not include any time chatting back and forth in text.  Aleksei has not paid a penny for any of this. It was not 2x to makeup, it was not 1x to makeup. $0 to makeup.

In March 2021, Aleksei became a shareholder in Pocarr, receiving yet another loan from us to accomplish this. As I stated at the start, he’s a hard worker, we value hard workers, and we saw value in giving him discounted equity and a 0% interest loan for this. This was not a pre-chop, this was a 0% interest loan, for discounted equity, repaid through coaching. Ask yourself, if you received zero moral or strategic support for 6 months during the worst stretch of your career, would you then want a loan shortly thereafter to invest in that company and those people? That is what happened.

In May 2022, Aleksei asked for a $17,700 cash loan to secure a real estate property he wanted. He had no other options to receive this. Not only did we provide this, but it was not a pre-chop, it was a 0% interest loan to be repaid through coaching. Note: It would later be repaid by Aleksei returning his share of Pocarr that he had purchased at a discount, with us buying it at a market premium simply to get this resolved. We took an enormous loss on this, roughly $12,000.

“and all my referrals, whom I myself trained, we are talking about income due to my activity - + 1.5 million dollars.”

The referrals Aleksei brought to Pocarr are not relevant to his personal situation with us, but I will give some insight into this anyway. Aleksei posted a screenshot of their lifetime profit. We did not stake these players for their entire career. Two of his referrals stole money from us. We received 50% or less of their profit. When we subtract the cost of mental coaching, strategic coaching, management, servers, accountant, lawyer, we are typically left with around 10% going to Pocarr shareholders. When a player steals money or we must cut them in makeup, we take a 100% loss + those costs, so the loss can be 150%+ in some cases of what you see on Sharkscope. The profit to us on the other hand, can never exceed the 50% we receive and is closer to 10%. This is a small margin business which is why you see so many stables come and go.

Since January 1, 2020, we are down $6,151.55 staking Aleksei. This does not include the costs of any resources (as listed above), this is just money received and money sent, whether that be loans or poker playing. However, if you Sharkscope search Aleksei for this time, he is up $133,198 at the tables. Things are not as simple as looking at Sharkscope profit.

“Pocarr pays for its staff at the expense of players and coaches.”

I have personally given Aleksei over 200 hours of my time on phone calls with him. We have talked about our wives, our daughters, his investments, real estate, cryptocurrency. There was never a cost to this. Our lead RU manager already listed other things we provided at no cost, so I won’t belabor the point with those, but I personally gave this at no cost.

“touch upon the topic of the PARTIALLY stolen rake”

Like the referrals, what other people have done is not relevant to Aleksei’s situation. He agreed to add rakeback to Pocarr cash and use it to either clear makeup, split if there was no makeup, or play on-stake games. He instead cashed this all out for himself and did not say a word, all while asking for more and more from us.

“I don't want to be part of your inadequate business model.”

This was my choice to be transparent and honest with our players about our 250k game downswing. It was not what everyone within our investors and management felt was best, but I ended up making the call on this. I value transparency and honesty and believe with that, we will be able to better-collaborate with our players to improve. I understood the risks and how this could look if it got out or was used against us, but this is who I am and who we are. We do not ghost players. We do not provide assistance while playing. We are straight with our players and work as hard as we can to continually get better, just as we expect our players to do. We could keep the information hidden and say to our players “trust us, we need to do xyz”, but I believe this leads to worse relationships, with less information you get less help, and the outcomes are worse. Many stables have come and gone. We have received many offers to buy players, buy entire stables, invest in other stables throughout the years. This is a difficult business. 2020 and 2021 were our two best years, and we have been around for 12 years. I hear no mention of this, only about the last 6 months.

We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t. If we tighten our staking or change our entry rules to be tighter, players are upset. If we do not do these things and players lose, players are upset. We are doing our absolute best.

In conclusion, we wanted to handle this privately which is why we did not make a Gipsy thread or twoplustwo thread. After having Aleksei post and provably lie (receiving zero support during that 6-month stretch), we no longer believe this can be resolved on a poker forum and are pursuing this legally.

We have presented Aleksei with an offer to repay $130,000 at $3,000 minimum per month, with increasing amounts if he profits more at the tables. If that is not agreeable, he has been made aware that we must pursue this in a court of law.

With all of that said, I still respect the work ethic that Aleksei has. I believe something is going on behind the scenes that I/we are not privy to. It does not make sense to have such a deal and receive the support we have given, and then do this. I wish him and his family success, great health, and I mean those things. I want to see them all do well. But we must resolve this and move forward with life.

Pocarr-ru @ 25.09.22 

When Aleksei wins $2,000, we will receive the full amount, and Aleksei will be +$1,000, Pocarr will be +$1,000 ($2,000 minus the loan given), and with that $2,000 profit at the tables it was divided as a poker arrangement typically goes. The only difference is that we allowed Aleksei to receive his share in advance, sometimes months or years before actually winning at the tables.

 

If Aleksei were to ask to receive a $1,000 loan and repay us $1,000 in the future, we would decline. We are not a bank and do not have enough money to do such a thing. We are not a charity. If Aleksei were to offer to return $1,000 with 10% interest, we would decline the original loan. We are offering to provide his share of future winnings, and this is the structure we can make it work. Aleksei is welcome to decline, seek staking elsewhere, get a loan elsewhere, sell an asset. We have never forced a player to receive a pre-chop. Our contracts are in the Player’s native language, and English; we make two different versions. This avoids any issues with language and the terms are clear before we begin any staking arrangement.

это абсолютная манипуляция словами, вы пишете что вы не банк и тут же наглдно показываете что выдали кредит под 100%. но пишете что под 10% не выдали бы. В описано вами схеме это кредит под 100%, но независимо от срока. хоть на неделю хть на 10 лет но строго под 100%. и это неявно условие, более того противоречащее пунктам 6.5 и 6.4 в вашем договоре где четко написано что игрок должен вернуть то что взял а не то что взял+ вашу заложенную прибыль.

Я в фонде с 2018 года, За всё время ни разу не брал зарплату (ту о которой здесь речь) хотя были периоды когда она была бы кстати. Фонд не заставляет игрока брать её. Когда ты приходишь к кому-то и просишь деньги - тебе выдвигают условия, а дальше ты можешь согласиться на них или нет. Фонд может быть плохим условия могут быть плохими или просто тебя может что-то не устраивать среди тех условий которые может выдвинуть заёмщик, однако если ты согласился и взял деньги - рассуждать о том что это плохие условия или ещё что-то попросту глупо.

Алексей тебя же никто не заствлял брать эти деньги так ведь?

Pocarr-ru @ 25.09.22 

Hi,

 

My name is Alex, and I am the founder of Pocarr. I have asked our lead Russian manager to post this for me, because the creating of new accounts is frozen on Gipsy.

 

I have always had great respect for Aleksei because he works hard. I value this over most things in life and choose to give my time and attention to those who truly work hard. I respect this a lot in Aleksei. With this, it was often with my advice that we as a collective unit at Pocarr, chose to improve conditions for Aleksei.

 

In February 2020, we paid $3,799.79 to sponsor Aleksei’s football team. In return he extended his playing agreement with us, so this was not done as charity, but we viewed this as a low ROI, or roughly neutral EV investment to have him be happy.

 

Link: https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/tallinna-fc-pocarr/350818

Image: 

url: https://gyazo.com/c02f19acea1df9eb6c3c8cd278819c92

 

Aleksei wanted a $1k/month guaranteed loan. As is standard in the staking industry, our only option we make available is for this to be a pre-chop. We will provide your share of a future chop immediately, and we receive our share in the future. In a staking relationship, you provide money and typically divide profit 50/50. If you make $1,000 at the tables, the player receives $500, and the backer receives $500. We are giving the opportunity for Aleksei in this instance, to receive his share of $2,000 profit at the tables immediately, and we will wait for our share until the winning happens.  When Aleksei wins $2,000, we will receive the full amount, and Aleksei will be +$1,000, Pocarr will be +$1,000 ($2,000 minus the loan given), and with that $2,000 profit at the tables it was divided as a poker arrangement typically goes. The only difference is that we allowed Aleksei to receive his share in advance, sometimes months or years before actually winning at the tables.

 

If Aleksei were to ask to receive a $1,000 loan and repay us $1,000 in the future, we would decline. We are not a bank and do not have enough money to do such a thing. We are not a charity. If Aleksei were to offer to return $1,000 with 10% interest, we would decline the original loan. We are offering to provide his share of future winnings, and this is the structure we can make it work. Aleksei is welcome to decline, seek staking elsewhere, get a loan elsewhere, sell an asset. We have never forced a player to receive a pre-chop. Our contracts are in the Player’s native language, and English; we make two different versions. This avoids any issues with language and the terms are clear before we begin any staking arrangement.

 

Later, Aleksei asked for this to be increased to $2,000 per month. We agreed. He later asked to revise this to be $0 per month, and instead 50% of his monthly profit would go toward clearing makeup, and 50% would be chopped. We agreed to this. This is an important point. If you cannot feed your family, you cannot take on the risk of not winning at the poker tables and have this model. The reason Aleksei could propose this, is because he was receiving money from us to coach. He was keeping all rakeback, which he was not authorized to do. He has enough in savings, investments, cryptocurrency, real estate, etc. that he knew if he had a losing month, he would be fine. He did not want to touch those things, and again, as always, the terms were very clear.

 

It may seem that a pre-chop of $2k going 2x to makeup (on a 50/50 deal) is not the same as 50% going toward clearing makeup and 50% being chopped, but I assure you they are the same thing. I will walk through the math:

 

If you profit $8,000 in a month and have $100k makeup, you send $8k to your backer and have $92k makeup. You receive a $2k loan at the end of the month, $4k is added to makeup, and makeup is now $96k.  The backer has received $6k and knocked $4k off makeup. The player has received $2k.

 

If instead you send 50% to clear makeup and chop the other 50%, you send $4k to your backer to reduce makeup (down to $96k), you keep $2k as the player, and you send $2k further to your backer. In this instance, the player received $2k, sent $6k, and makeup remained $96k.

 

So, both models are pre-chops. If Aleksei can risk receiving $0 in a losing month, he has enough money to survive and eat. He has plenty of assets, he just does not want to touch those. Fine. We made an offer to him that we would provide these pre-chops and he would not have to touch his assets. He accepted. We expect those terms to be followed.

 

To the various claims made:

“those my six months of nonsense, where I did not receive any moral and technical support.”

 

url: https://gyazo.com/edabf4225de06e94d937f38470e2b18d

 

Above is an image where I have found the exact timeframe. July 31st 2020 – February 8th 2021, roughly. In this time, I personally had 28.1 hours of group coaching calls with Aleksei. Aleksei had requested that I be the main person he does coaching with, after 116.43 prior group coaching hours which proved to be helpful, beginning in June 2018. During this timeframe of “not [receiving] any moral and technical support”, I also gave 7.7 hours of 1-1 calls. These are things I personally provided, at Aleksei’s request, after years of great success working together. It is an outright lie, and I have proof of this, that we provided zero moral or technical support.

 

In total, I have provided 210.53 hours of support to Aleksei via phone calls on Skype. This does not include any time chatting back and forth in text.  Aleksei has not paid a penny for any of this. It was not 2x to makeup, it was not 1x to makeup. $0 to makeup.

 

In March 2021, Aleksei became a shareholder in Pocarr, receiving yet another loan from us to accomplish this. As I stated at the start, he’s a hard worker, we value hard workers, and we saw value in giving him discounted equity and a 0% interest loan for this. This was not a pre-chop, this was a 0% interest loan, for discounted equity, repaid through coaching. Ask yourself, if you received zero moral or strategic support for 6 months during the worst stretch of your career, would you then want a loan shortly thereafter to invest in that company and those people? That is what happened.

 

In May 2022, Aleksei asked for a $17,700 cash loan to secure a real estate property he wanted. He had no other options to receive this. Not only did we provide this, but it was not a pre-chop, it was a 0% interest loan to be repaid through coaching. Note: It would later be repaid by Aleksei returning his share of Pocarr that he had purchased at a discount, with us buying it at a market premium simply to get this resolved. We took an enormous loss on this, roughly $12,000.

 

“and all my referrals, whom I myself trained, we are talking about income due to my activity - + 1.5 million dollars.”

The referrals Aleksei brought to Pocarr are not relevant to his personal situation with us, but I will give some insight into this anyway. Aleksei posted a screenshot of their lifetime profit. We did not stake these players for their entire career. Two of his referrals stole money from us. We received 50% or less of their profit. When we subtract the cost of mental coaching, strategic coaching, management, servers, accountant, lawyer, we are typically left with around 10% going to Pocarr shareholders. When a player steals money or we must cut them in makeup, we take a 100% loss + those costs, so the loss can be 150%+ in some cases of what you see on Sharkscope. The profit to us on the other hand, can never exceed the 50% we receive and is closer to 10%. This is a small margin business which is why you see so many stables come and go.

 

Since January 1, 2020, we are down $6,151.55 staking Aleksei. This does not include the costs of any resources (as listed above), this is just money received and money sent, whether that be loans or poker playing. However, if you Sharkscope search Aleksei for this time, he is up $133,198 at the tables. Things are not as simple as looking at Sharkscope profit.

 

“Pocarr pays for its staff at the expense of players and coaches.”

I have personally given Aleksei over 200 hours of my time on phone calls with him. We have talked about our wives, our daughters, his investments, real estate, cryptocurrency. There was never a cost to this. Our lead RU manager already listed other things we provided at no cost, so I won’t belabor the point with those, but I personally gave this at no cost.

 

“touch upon the topic of the PARTIALLY stolen rake”

Like the referrals, what other people have done is not relevant to Aleksei’s situation. He agreed to add rakeback to Pocarr cash and use it to either clear makeup, split if there was no makeup, or play on-stake games. He instead cashed this all out for himself and did not say a word, all while asking for more and more from us.

 

“I don't want to be part of your inadequate business model.”

This was my choice to be transparent and honest with our players about our 250k game downswing. It was not what everyone within our investors and management felt was best, but I ended up making the call on this. I value transparency and honesty and believe with that, we will be able to better-collaborate with our players to improve. I understood the risks and how this could look if it got out or was used against us, but this is who I am and who we are. We do not ghost players. We do not provide assistance while playing. We are straight with our players and work as hard as we can to continually get better, just as we expect our players to do. We could keep the information hidden and say to our players “trust us, we need to do xyz”, but I believe this leads to worse relationships, with less information you get less help, and the outcomes are worse. Many stables have come and gone. We have received many offers to buy players, buy entire stables, invest in other stables throughout the years. This is a difficult business. 2020 and 2021 were our two best years, and we have been around for 12 years. I hear no mention of this, only about the last 6 months.

 

We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t. If we tighten our staking or change our entry rules to be tighter, players are upset. If we do not do these things and players lose, players are upset. We are doing our absolute best.

 

In conclusion, we wanted to handle this privately which is why we did not make a Gipsy thread or twoplustwo thread. After having Aleksei post and provably lie (receiving zero support during that 6-month stretch), we no longer believe this can be resolved on a poker forum and are pursuing this legally.

 

We have presented Aleksei with an offer to repay $130,000 at $3,000 minimum per month, with increasing amounts if he profits more at the tables. If that is not agreeable, he has been made aware that we must pursue this in a court of law.

 

With all of that said, I still respect the work ethic that Aleksei has. I believe something is going on behind the scenes that I/we are not privy to. It does not make sense to have such a deal and receive the support we have given, and then do this. I wish him and his family success, great health, and I mean those things. I want to see them all do well. But we must resolve this and move forward with life.

Hi Alex. You can use this account to write here. Also you can create your personal account. Now this is restricted, but we can do it, write me PM if you need.

frozenatra @ 24.09.22 

У меня уже больше месяца такая фигня и ты об этом прекрасно знаешь, и тоже любой может сказать, кто.

 

P.S. Только у тебя он, как всегда, не один.

Я тебя уже спрашивал, с какого лешего ты за мной с минусами по всему форуму бегаешь, и предлагал поговорить в личке. Но у тебя пока не хватило на это яиц.

tipitip, это prepay, а не кредит. Дележка потенциального профита заранее.

FaNjke @ 25.09.22 

tipitip, это prepay, а не кредит. Дележка потенциального профита заранее.

Ну а если профита не будет, то и делить нечего. ТС прав, лишние накрутки нужно убрать.

FaNjke @ 25.09.22 

tipitip, это prepay, а не кредит. Дележка потенциального профита заранее.

Кредит

Взял деньги - вернул больше.

Препей- 

взял под делешку профита- нет профита, вернул то что взял.

 А Если обязан вернуть с "потенциальным профитом" даже если его нет (то есть из своих)- смотри пункт Кредит.

tipitip, да, если так, ты прав.

Мне для понимания. В чем заключается слоган "С нами ты ничем не рискуешь"?

Лично мне кажется, что 60% сверху за покарровский аванс (препей, кредит, называйте как хотите) - это конечно грабительский процент, но хочу обратить ваше внимание на бизнес составляющую вопроса.

Кому чаще всего предоставляется данный аванс? Игроку, который уже долгое время не выигрывает, проел-потратил запас денег, что у него был и сидит в мейк-апе. Там сразу целый пакет проблем с игроком появляется. Неуверенность в себе, рушится игра, замазка, перманентный тильт и все-все-все.

Как думаете какова средняя возвратность таких "инвестиций" покарра? Историй бекинга, фондов, школ полна таких историй. Да, кто-то выбрался, раскрутился, заимел бр у все резко наладилось, но все ведь знают истории об игроках с мейком в 2к АБИ+, который длится уже больше года. И в это время игрок еще получает "в долг" средства на обеспечение своей жизни. Как эти истории чаще всего заканчиваются? Ушел на работу, поставил крест на покере, беккер/фонд утратил надежды на отмазку и простил мейк-ап, так как возвращать его попросту неоткуда. 

Ну и вот эти экстра 60% это тот самый инструмент, который делает всю эту затею целесообразной с точки зрения бизнеса, + будущий профит, конечно. Но будущего профита придется ждать очень долго, также нередко игрок зальет сверху прежде чем его кикнут, ну вы поняли.

Возникает вопрос зачем вообще фонды это все делают, а не кикают игроков на раннем этапе. Думаю, часто неверно оценивают спот и просто хотят отмазаться. Как бы то ни было, думаю, многие неправильно понимают вообще как работают фонды и представляют себе золотые горы, которых на самом деле нет. 

И понятное дело фонд будет пытаться вернуть эти экстра 60% в каждом удобном случае, учитывая, что около половины таких "займов" оказались безвозватными, и целая куча таких висит сейчас и непонятно вернутся ли они вообще. 

О том правильно ли это не мне судить, но с точки зрения бизнеса вполне логично.